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and this is weapons

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you know five years we've seen such a

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dramatic change in how the topic is

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regarded by mainstream media Congress is

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looking at it the public is energized I

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mean it's an amazing about face and

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transformation of events I never thought

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I would see but I'm curious you know in

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private conversations you've told us the

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Navy is global it's a big place sure but

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it's also a small place so can you give

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us a sense of during these five years of

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tumultuous change and so much public

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attention on the UFO issue and questions

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is it discussed among your colleagues is

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it something that's a kind of a you talk

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about on a regular basis right well it

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is and it isn't you know it kind of just

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depends on who you talk to you know all

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my buddies sure I'm the fox Mulder of

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you know of the Squadron you know so you

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know oh UFO stuff you know talk to guts

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you know but it is and it isn't

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um certainly you know 2017 was a big

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year uh when when someone like Commander

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fraver comes out and shares his story

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that's a big deal it's a really big deal

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someone like Chad Underwood you've

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talked to when they come out and provide

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there so it's a big deal Ryan Grace

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people that don't know about this stuff

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right so you're talking about Commander

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um David fraber Commander Chad Underwood

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Commander David fraver was the guy that

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chased a UFO for the United States

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military famously called the Tic Tac UFO

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incident which is now famous because the

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New York Times and everything the

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interviews George and I did sure on with

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Dave fraver and also with Commander

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Underwood he's the guy that filmed the

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Tic Tac UFO so we have witness report

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from a pilot who's head of the Black

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Aces then you got somebody who he sends

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out to film this UFO and he films and if

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we're putting it's put out to the world

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yeah so people that don't know if that's

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what we're talking about you saw that

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and you were like what actually when I

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first told you I was talking with the

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Navy commander who chased the UFO what

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was your reaction that was it's

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total I didn't I didn't uh

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didn't know I didn't believe you man you

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know and again that kind of goes back to

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the whole you know sort and wheat from

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you got to have a good BS meter you know

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I don't I don't have to tell you that uh

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you really got to have a good biasm with

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all this stuff when you first mentioned

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that you had somebody uh of the status

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of Commander favor

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um I didn't believe it you know that's

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too good to be true it's a perfect

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witness you know when you think about it

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wow well and like I've told you before

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you know privately I wish people I wish

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the general public more inherently

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understood the quality of the caliber of

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witness the quality of witness that a

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guy like Commander favor is why

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number one uh he's an aviator so I got a

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you know buy a store towards that but uh

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no listen he's a jet jock he's a he is

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as close to the real life Maverick Tom

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Cruise that you're gonna get in real

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life okay he's the CEO of his own

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Squadron which again in our world yeah

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there's no one above that the Black Aces

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you know uh uh

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uh a you know jet Squadron that deploys

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around the world he's the CEO of that

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Squadron he's a Naval Academy graduate

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he's a Top Gun graduate

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um I believe was an instructor don't

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quote me on that but again this is

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somebody that when they speak people

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should listen you know and take what

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they're saying seriously

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um and so

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do people talk about it yeah but it's

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not it's not prolific you know uh there

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were you know even today you'll come

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across folks in active duty folks you

95
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ever heard of commander fraver and God

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know who's that I go how the hell do you

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not know about that you know so no we

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look at we we do talk

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um it's not a at least my perspective is

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it's not a it's not a dirty little

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secret or anything like that if people

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want to talk about it they talk about it

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um which is great because you know

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another reason why you know I would

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agree to come on do something like this

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you know there's stigma with this stuff

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you know there's been a stigma for a

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long time

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and I think I think we're turning a

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corner it feels like it uh but there's

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still a lot of work to be done how does

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that show up in in your kind of line of

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work how does the stigma to unidentified

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fly on objects and Pilots you know

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having to deal with that near misses

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um you know should we engage it should

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we not how do how does stigma show up in

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your field well the way it comes up is

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you know it's it's kind of those that

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have had an experience and those who

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haven't right for the guys that have run

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into the stuff on a daily basis for them

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it's real and they have and they have

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you know that's a fact Pilots are

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running into unidentified flying objects

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on a daily basis they're seeing them

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picking them up on radar that's a fact

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okay uh

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for them it's real and stigma be damned

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because you can't tell a guy something

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that just flew by your cockpit at you

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know you know 50 feet away from from you

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you can't deny that

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um the way the stigma shows up is for

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those who haven't who aren't interested

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in this stuff who don't understand the

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aviation safety aspects associated with

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UAP

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um and so that's kind of where why I

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classify it that way those that have had

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experiences and those who haven't and

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for those who haven't you know it's just

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hard for them to wrap their mind around

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it you know it's still a big mystery we

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don't know what this stuff is 2017

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Jeremy and I uh were able to break the

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story of the TIC tag twice on Coast to

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Coast months before it came out in the

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New York Times and because of how Jeremy

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treated a commander fraber with respect

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that word gets around it it helps

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cultivate other sources sure and has

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serve both of us really well when that

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story comes out though it leads to

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changes in the Navy I mean the Navy

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comes out and says we want to make it

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easier for our aviators and other

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service members to go ahead and report

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this stuff when it happens so that

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there's no Stigma less stigma attached

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it's not going to hurt your career the

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lab the Navy has led the charge I mean I

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want to know if this is a source of

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Pride for you when you compare it to say

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the Air Force which I'll just say it

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they're flat out dragging their butts on

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this stuff they've been uncooperative

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with congress with the UAP task force

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you know that they're sitting on a big

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pile of information that they're not

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sharing and if they'll have to be drag

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Kicking and Screaming the Navy at least

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ostensibly is much more Cooperative are

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you proud of that the Navy doing that

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without question you know I I uh you

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know obviously yeah I'm biased towards

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the naval service but I am proud you

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know that I'm proud of the way that

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we've we've tried to uh tackle this

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topic because there's a real concern out

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there you know we got guys in the air

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coming across things that we that we

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that we don't know what they are and the

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risk for a near mid-air Collision or God

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forbid an actual midair Collision I mean

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it's there it's really there and the

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fact the Navy has tried to implement uh

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you know maybe easier reporting

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procedures or guidelines to make it okay

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for Pilots not to be afraid to to say

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Hey you know I saw this thing I don't

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know what it is but I almost I almost

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hit it have you seen that change I mean

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now is it easier to report UFOs because

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I remember when we were looking to

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Winners one of the new Commandments

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coming down on like how to report this

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you know and and from personal

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experience you know from my perspective

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as a Helo guy

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um we I don't think it trickled down to

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our level necessarily because maybe it

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wasn't you know we weren't necessarily

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the type of platform that was

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encountering the stuff on a daily basis

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but again if you talk to guys on the

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East Coast based out of Oceana certainly

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uh the the

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um the Paradigm and shifted for guys

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like that for sure and you've directly

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talked about it absolutely absolutely uh

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so yeah for guys like them it was

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definitely a noticeable change was it

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fleet-wide I I can't speak to that you

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know

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um I don't really have have an opinion

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on that

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um but the fact that like like you said

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George the fact that uh the Navy did at

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least seem to be taking the lead on

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absolutely it's a point of Pride for me

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um you know I won't I won't uh I won't

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bash my my other uh brothers and sisters

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in the other services but uh you know I

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can't speak to what what their plans are

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what their intentions are with all this

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stuff but there's some there have been

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some glaring uh silences if I can

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classify it that way from from other

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services that it kind of makes you

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scratch your head because I'm this is

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not only a Navy thing it's not only an

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East Coast thing it's not only a West

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Coast thing

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um right it's worldwide people are

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seeing this stuff uh everywhere you know

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so you have you have direct knowledge

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unidentified craft

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that don't seem to have the typical what

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we'd call propulsion right what we what

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we'd see rotors wash sure plumes he heat

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signatures that these are being

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encountered by our we'll just say uh you

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know Department of Defense we'll say our

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um

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all branches of the military that are

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that are in the air doing this they're

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being encountered they're encountering

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these things that we don't know whose

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they are we don't know who operates them

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we don't know their intent I mean that

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is you were saying that right yeah I

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mean that's that's that's my opinion

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yeah again I'm not I'm not speaking on

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behalf of the dod or the service in any

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way but uh no I mean my yeah I mean if

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you're asking me in my opinion uh

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absolutely that would seem important to

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me that our defense you know systems as

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my perspective is that that seems

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important to me that our our defense we

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should know whose Vehicles these are

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absolutely look you know at the end of

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the day

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um

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the profession of arms is to defend you

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know the country yeah and and to defend

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our allies around the world and if we're

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coming across of that we don't know what

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it is uh you know we we want to know

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what that is you know I've heard there's

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been some criticism in the media over

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the years about you know

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um this threat narrative you know well

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I'm sorry but you can't blame a guy uh

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whose job it is is to assess threats and

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take care of them I mean that's our job

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you know explain that a little bit more

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for people that are totally new to this

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is that the threat narrative so the idea

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that there are you have the idea that

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the idea that you know they're

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unidentified objects sure and what's the

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threat narrative what is that you're

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talking well the threat narrative being

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that you know a lot of the language that

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some people have used uh when talking

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about uh UAP or unidentified as you know

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for example that uh atip right Advanced

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Aerospace identification program

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Advanced Aerospace threat identification

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right the word threat is in the is in

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the title of the program right and and

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there were people that had some problems

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with the iterations why why are they

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looking at this as a threat we don't

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know what they are well again from the

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perspective of the profession of Arms

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from the perspective of the defense and

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the national interests of the United

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States unless you know what you're

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dealing with you kind of have to

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unfortunately it's a again just my

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opinion here it's a default position

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that you kind of have to take because at

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the end of the day we don't know what

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we're dealing with you know

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um so I think that's why I don't know if

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that answers yeah I mean so you've got

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the one perspective which is that from

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from a National Defense position we

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should know who's making these objects

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who's fine and what the intent is if we

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don't know we better find out and then

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you know from another perspective it's a

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flight safety issue you've got these

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objects and people every day there have

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been some near-misses

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um and then there's the bigger

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existential questions that come after

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that another narrative about the UFO

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phenomenon has been here for so long

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maybe we're just seeing them more

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because our technology and our radar

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systems are integrated we have better

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camera systems better Radars maybe it's

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always been here and we're just you know

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the idea that there's an increase in

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frequency it appears that way to us but

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we don't know for certain right right

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because maybe they've always been there

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and we're just seeing them more who